A question has been asked:
"If it is possible to disturb the peace of your dead relatives -no, I cannot believe it is possible with christian souls. Isaiah 57:2, right?"
This is a very difficult question and I will admit that I don't know the answer. But there is this story in the Bible about King Saul and the witch of Endor who is said to summon Samuel from the dead.
Here is an article I found on this topic:
Our questions about 1 Samuel 28 probably cannot be resolved. The Torah had forbidden necromancy (Deut. 18:9-12). Moses didn’t say it didn’t “work”; he said it was an abomination. So the writer of 1 Samuel will truly report that Saul dabbled in necromancy, but he seems to be stingy with particulars that would satisfy our curiosity. No overly intricate details. He’s not about to provide us with a necromancy “how to” kit. Hence I doubt that these subsidiary queries can ever be definitely answered.
Is the spirit the medium summons actually Samuel? Apparently so, since what “Samuel” says in vv. 16-19 is entirely consistent with what he had said prior to his death (see 1 Sam. 15:17-19, 22-23, 28). (Saul got no “new light” here.) Or could it have been a demon impersonating Samuel? Some have thought so; others have thought that the woman screamed because she was actually a phony and not accustomed to the real thing happening, as it did on this occasion (see Youngblood, in revised EBC, vol. 3, for various views). Or it could simply be that God permitted a bona fide manifestation of Samuel through this forbidden means in order to confirm Saul’s forsakenness to him.
It seems reasonably clear that Samuel is coming from the realm of the dead.Feel free to express your opinion in the comments section:)
I lean towards it wasn't actually Samuel. I lean towards this for a few reasons. First Jesus states that once we are saved, we are saved.
ReplyDeleteJohn 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
Even before that the bible reveals a conversation that went on between a rich man and Abraham. (Luke 16:19-31) The bible does not say this was a story or a parable, so I firmly believe this happened. A rich man died as did a beggar named Lazarus. Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom and the rich man found himself in hell. The rich man called out to Abraham to send Lazarus first to provide him water, then later to warn his family. Abraham stated to the first that there was a great gulf that was fixed between them that neither group could pass between. To me if neither group could cross it is likely they couldn't go up or down either.
One thing that really seals it though is the account itself.
1st Samuel 28:13-14 "And the king said unto her, Be not afraid; for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself."
The actual account continues to verse 20, but I stopped at verse 14. Now while it might have been Samuel, it says Saul perceived that it was Samuel. Which while the Lord might have allowed it, its just as likely that it was a fallen angel pretending to be him.
If you looked at the passage just above it, the witch stated that she saw gods ascending out of the earth. Those are typically fallen angels pretending to be gods. Also we are told that the fallen angels like to pretend to be ministers of righteousness. 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15
So to me I think it is quite likely that "Samuel" wasn't the prophet Samuel, I think it was likely a fallen angel or something else, pretending to be him. If it was in fact one, then the next few verses where King Saul is told exactly how he failed and what is about to happen to him and Israel, well that seems like something they would say.
Again it could still be Samuel and the Lord allowing this. (What you meant for evil, I meant for good.) He does do stuff like that. However I firmly suspect this was not Samuel at all. After all why would the Lord allow someone practicing evil to disturb the rest of one who has fallen asleep.
- W
I believe it was Samuel just as this article says
ReplyDeletehttps://www.gotquestions.org/witch-of-endor.html
"The passage does not give any indication that the apparition the witch of Endor saw was anything other than Samuel himself. We know that the medium was not producing an illusion because she screams in surprise when she sees Samuel (1 Samuel 28:12). Also, the spirit rising from the earth is called “Samuel.” The text does not say that the spirit “appeared to be Samuel” or that the medium “thought it was Samuel”; the text directly refers to the spirit as “Samuel.” Further, the spirit spoke the truth; the message Saul received was accurate."
I don't believe in "once saved always saved" either. I agree with the Lutheran doctrine on this issue. And just look around you, there are enough people who were believers who later lost their faith. This whole OSAS stuff is the reason why Christians don't really care much to confront sin, because they don't believe it's a big deal any more.
A couple of counters.
Delete"We know that the medium was not producing an illusion because she screams in surprise when she sees Samuel"
Except that's not why she screamed. Verse 12 "And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul say, Why hast thou decieved me? for thou art Saul."
She cried out because Saul had in the past had anyone with familiar spirits or who were wizards driven out of the land or outright executed. See Verse 9 where she states that before knowing who he was. She cried out because she found out who Saul was, and rightfully feared for her life.
It is curious that she saw Samuel she then knew who Saul was. To me this still feels like it was a spirit pretending to be Samuel. It would appear that whatever she saw told her who Saul was.
Honestly rereading verses 14 and 15. It almost seems like he, that is Saul did not actually see Samuel, rather that Samuel was speaking to Saul through the witch, and said witch described what Samuel looked like. From that description, Saul perceived him to be Samuel. This is directly counter to any actual appearance of a messenger from the Lord. They can always be seen, either in dreams, visions, or in person. However in this case it very much reads like the witch was doing what so called psychics or mediums do today. Speaking for the dead because they the mediums can see the spirits and you cannot.
So I maintain my position that this was not in fact Samuel, but rather something else pretending to be him.
Also, of course it spoke the truth. Fallen Angels, Devils, unclean spirits most certainly lie, but they are not confined to lies. If the truth will hurt and cause great harm, they will tell the truth.
On the Once Saved Always Saved, I firmly believe you are wrong, but I'm not going to push it. As long as you are saved, the argument doesn't matter. But I do have an issue with the next thing you stated.
"This whole OSAS stuff is the reason why Christians don't really care much to confront sin, because they don't believe it's a big deal any more."
This is blatantly false. There is a rot infesting the churches, not the doctrine. This rot is effecting Nondenominationals, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Protestants, the Catholics, and the Orthodox alike. It is a sign of the times, not a doctrine issue.
- W
Well, I'll stick to the traditional theological interpretation and I think the text is plain enough like explained in that article.
DeleteAs for OSAS, it's a new doctrine which became popular in the 1970s. Before most churches taught at least Lordship Salvation or a Calvinist version of it called Perseverance of the saints. That is, if you persevere till the end, then you were elected, something which OSAS proponents virulently oppose and call "salvation by works". So yes, I firmly believe I correct.
Also, if you are "once saved always saved" then why is the Bible full of admonitions on how to behave and warning against apostasy? Why praying or going to church at all? You are automatically going to Heaven then why bother?
It's true that there is a rot infesting the churches but where does it come from? OSAS and variants (like you are baptised you go to Heaven automatically) are obviously to blame. As for the Catholic Church, google Vatican II. It basically did away with "mortal sin". Now basically no sin is mortal any more. It all started around the same time, after the good guys won WWII.
My question was about christian souls. Samuel wasn't christian.
ReplyDeleteWe christians are not under law, but grace. So whatever happened in old Testament times, is just history. Not how it works with us.
You are either saved or unsaved. Samuel was obviously saved. These things haven't changed since OT. What could have changed, is where the souls of those saved reside. I know there is a theory that before the resurrection the souls of believers didn't go to Heaven and stayed in a special part of Sheol and that Jesus Christ rescued them from there. However, apparently not all theologians agree. So that again, is a matter of personal belief like so many other things.
ReplyDelete