Actually, I wanted to talk about Trump's Golden Calf giant gold statue, but decided not to. It's old news by now anyway (life comes at you fast;), so let's talk theology instead.
What do you all think about Wesleyan Arminianism?
Actually, I wanted to talk about Trump's Golden Calf giant gold statue, but decided not to. It's old news by now anyway (life comes at you fast;), so let's talk theology instead.
What do you all think about Wesleyan Arminianism?
I'm not a Wesleyan, and I'm looking at this as a former Pentecostal and now an Orthodox convert. So if I'm speaking out of turn, I hope someone will correct me.
ReplyDeleteWe could say that Wesleyan theology formed as a conscious reaction against the excesses of Calvinism and the Oxford Movement in the Anglican church. Wherever Calvinism was rigid and exclusive, the Wesleyans were flexible and inclusive. Where the Oxford Movement wanted to make the Anglican church more Catholic, the Wesleyans emphasized latitude and evangelicalism to make the Faith more accessible to all, and many of John Wesley's doctrines were effectively liberal.
On the question of Arminianism in particular, this was part of the reaction against Calvinist excesses. Where Calvinism insisted that man is so depraved as to have no free will, the Wesleyans emphasized free will to such an extent, if I understand correctly, that unwittingly sin committed with good intentions doesn't really count as sin, and that God can also cleanse (sanctify) people entirely from our sinful natures. Effectively this softens human guilt in our sinful natures and also creates the notion that human life is perfectible on the earth (both being foolishly utopian ideals that ultimately come into deadly conflict with reality.)
Over centuries, the popular appeal of Wesleyan theology significantly weakened both Calvinism and strict Catholicism, and when its attitudes expanded into secularism, they weakened paternalistic governance and ended up spreading social liberalism.
Overall, Wesleyanism---for any merits to some of its doctrines---is a well-meaning but utopian liberalizing force that has drifted without a rudder into the suicidal excesses of modern liberalism and leftism.
Janus, this is all very interesting. I'm aware that Methodists are quite liberal, and that Wesley himself apparently allowed women to preach, which I disagree with. Wikipedia doesn't write anything about sinning with good intentions not counting as sinning though;) May be it came later. If you only go by what Wiki says his doctrines weren't that different from mainstream Arminianism. I disagree about reaching sinless perfection in this life, obviously and about Christians not going to Heaven right away. I think it was also Wesley who first said that Cleanliness is next to Godliness, which encouraged people to bathe regularly, which was good.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you choose Eastern Orthodoxy?
I think a lot of people are drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy (or Roman Catholicism, maybe Lutheranism) as a kind of reaction against the times, and against the weak Christianity of our times.
DeletePeople in the West are increasingly rootless, increasingly alienated from reality itself, let alone isolated from functional families, communities, and nations. In an unstable, materialistic world where nothing is really true, and nothing is really serious, people yearn in their spirits for deeper truths and purposes that are grounded across the ages. If these disaffected people are even vaguely Christian, the answer often looks like Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
This trend in Christianity today is just as much a reaction against the current excesses and deficiencies in today's churches as the 16th century reaction against the Roman Catholics by the followers of Luther, or the 18th century reaction against the Calvinists by John Wesley and his fellow travelers. (And like any reaction, these movements can over-correct and create excesses of their own, but that's a whole other topic!)
Reaction was a driving force for me, too, along with this yearning in the spirit. Everyone has a conversion story, but in short, Roman Catholic arguments about the objective truth in the Sacraments, the authority of apostolic succession, and Church history convinced me of their truth since the Lord's time on Earth. I sat on the fence for a while between the Catholics and Orthodox, but the excesses of Pope Francis finally infuriated me enough to make a final decision, and I chose Orthodoxy back in 2015. Reactions upon reactions! But really, what I have wanted (like so many others) is to live and fight for the truth, not merely to react against the times.
I should add that it's not like Orthodoxy or Catholicism don't have their own problems with the cultural rot, too! That's one of the great frustrations.
DeleteCan you understand the liturgy? Or is it in English? I would say that Catholicism is more "user-friendly'' in my opinion;)
ReplyDeleteWhere I attend in the US, most of the liturgy is in English. This situation varies from parish to parish around this country, with some all in English and some in whatever nationality's language.
DeleteBut I definitely think you're right: Catholicism is more "user-friendly" in the West, and in some ways moreso overall.
They sure don't have so many fasts...
ReplyDelete