I recently read a discussion online between a Catholic and an Evangelical. The Catholic guy was talking about some friend of his who had previously led a sinful life but then converted, repented of his sins and was going to be baptised, and how his decision to become a Catholic would influence his life (no more dalliances with women, either marriage or celibacy). The Evangelical guy basically told him that is all nonsense and ''works salvation" since believing in Jesus is enough, you don't need to repent and, apparently, you don't need to change your lifestyle, either.
There is the whole Evangelical movement online which will basically tell you the same. But is it really Biblical? Can a person be truly saved if he says that he is a believer now but continues to lead the same sinful life he did before? Repentance is not optional, it is the command of God. The Gospel Coalition agrees:
While the apostle Paul was preaching in Athens, he said, “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead” (Acts 17:30-31).
In other words, repentance is not optional. God will hold everyone accountable for their words and deeds (2 Corinthians 5:10).
Read the whole article over here.
I, too, have heard of this argument and find it foolish. If one becomes a Christian, one should be following Christ. There are numerous verses in the NT that tell how we are to live as Christians. Ephesians 5 comes to mind. There is one specific verse that addresses your post, but of course I can't find that one specific verse. I think it was in Galatians or Ephesians.
ReplyDelete(I've enjoyed your blog for several years.)
Thanks, anonymous, I'm glad you like it:)
ReplyDelete12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
ReplyDeleteGood quote!
ReplyDeleteI've never heard such a thing ("repentance optional") and I've been in evangelical churches all my life. Neither have I heard that holy conduct is optional. Just the opposite in fact, since the Bible is clear on what the works of the flesh are and what the fruit of the Spirit is. True Christians don't practice sin as a lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteNow what I do NOT believe is that you lose your salvation if you fall into temptation, even of a grievous sort. If you repent and turn (see Psalm 51 or 1 John 1:9) this is actually more evidence of your salvation than your lapse is of damnation. Maybe that's where the problem lies?
I don't know because I have literally NEVER heard any Christian teacher claim that we don't have to repent.
Elspeth, I was talking about websites which call themselves Evangelical and promote this doctrine. I remember looking into it some time ago and apparently it's quite recent. Then there are other Evangelical websites which attack them, of course, and point out that if Jesus is your Saviour, then he must also be your Lord. I think it's called "Lordship Salvation" which the other side then criticises.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that nowadays so many people learn their theology online and then spread it further, and these sites obviously have some influence. About losing one's salvation, one could argue this way and that. Personally I believe that a grievous ("mortal") sin if left unrepented will pull you away from God and can cause you to lose your faith. And since salvation is by faith, if you lose your faith you lose your salvation. I realise many will disagree but we all know that one person who used to be a Christian and is now an atheist. That is what Martin Luther originally taught, too. It was Calvin who came up with the original ''once saved always saved'' doctrine. But Calvinists go around it by claiming that you can only learn if someone is truly saved if they "persevere" till the end. So they don't exactly preach lawlessness.
Also you probably only attended conservative churches. These guys are obviously quite liberal.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that I've mostly attended conservative churches, although our Reformed cohorts would say that more than "conservative" (because what does that even mean now?), our church is "Biblical", :)
DeleteI know there are liberal churches and doctrines out there, and you're 100%, spot on about the ubiquity of online theologians spouting off all kinds of things to those who "have itching ears".
As an agnostic, lots of nonsense there in the link. I'm no advocate of cheating on your spouse, cheating your friends and neighbors, but I hate this guilt BS pushed by churchianity. Today's churches and scores of denominations are so far removed from what Jesus said. I have to wonder if Jesus would be pleased with the dozens of variations in his name.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing "churchian" about the call to repentance. Have you even read the Gospel? Jesus taught frequently about the Hell, btw.
ReplyDeleteHere is the late William Donahue's commentary about Hell. Another bogus concept to control people.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT9KOJdRMIk
Why should I listen to some internet influencer as opposed to 2 thousand years of the Christian tradition?
ReplyDeleteWilliam Donahue was not an influencer. I believe someone posted those recordings over the years. He is certainly more intelligent and sensible than any preacher or priest. Evangelicals and others literalist idiots.
DeleteI also listen to the Recovering Catholic. Just because something is 'traditional' does not make it correct.
A great example is retarded stupidity of Catholicism of priest not marrying and other dumb ideas that were not taught by Jesus. That Paul really screwed up a lot of stuff.
I'm thankful I never wasted much of my life with church nonsense. I can get the social aspect. I like the charity work for those in need.
My dad was raised Catholic. Got married in late 20's in the Catholic church. Wife became an alcoholic and he ended up with custody of two children. It's notable he never took me or my sister in his second marriage to any church on Sunday. My mom's side was not religious either though Czechs were traditionally Catholic. My dad's actions tell me a lot right there.
Well, since you have no religion, why are you trying to teach me about mine? Everything I want to know is right there, in the Bible, anyway. Especially in the New Testament. Which I read in several translations.
ReplyDeleteI understand. You simply can't process William's point of view which he also supports with scripture. You can tell the loves the Bible and Jesus, he simply is not the typical normietard hack I would find here in America. Maybe it's different in Europe.
DeleteGive me some credit for at least watching some of these people and looking up things for myself. I think most people would agree with what Jesus said as far as love and charity, they simply don't like all the guilt ridden nonsense preached in churches.
I also read a lot about NDEs (Near Death Experiences) and even those who are Catholic or whatever come out with a totally different perspective on some aspects of religion.
If you are interested in religion, it helps to read the holy books of the said religion. For Christianity, it is the Bible, especially the New Testament. All this stuff about faith, repentance and things like that is right there. The whole point of faith in Jesus Christ is to get the eternal life.
ReplyDelete"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Believing in Jesus means repenting of your past sins and unbelief and accepting that He died for you and took away your sin and nailed it to the Cross. True faith always comes with repentance and the sincere desire to live a holy life afterwards (though, of course, it's not entirely possible as long as we are in this world). That's just the basic stuff and any serious Christian will tell you that. That's also what the article was all about.
Somehow I don't think that you are arguing in good faith.
I believe none of the stuff about dying for 'sins,' a virgin birth, salvation, and other nonsense perpetuated by the church. This does not mean I agree with evolution (lots of problems and the creationist make some reasonable scientific assertions), abortion (certainly should not be used as casual birth control), or do not acknowledge a spiritual realm (there are ghosts). So yes, I totally agree with your last sentence about me.
DeleteHowever, those who have spoken about there NDE have also said that most religions here on Earth don't have it all totally right. Besides, if a Christian is whatever stripe is going to promise me eternal damnation for not agree with them, which one of the scores of variations I should be following?
I'm glad I live in a country where someone that William Donahue and the Recovering Catholic can present their views.
Texan,
DeleteI believe none of the stuff about dying for 'sins,' a virgin birth, salvation, and other nonsense perpetuated by the church.
So basically, you denounce Christianity, which is your prerogative. As you correctly stated, this is America. What I fail to understand is why, given that you clearly disagree with Christianity's most bedrock dogmas, you have any opinion at all about what you believe Christ taught vs what churches may or may not get wrong.
Your contribution here is tantamount to me - a strident anti feminist- walking into a conference of the National Organization for Women, and insisting that everything that they do and say is completely out of step with what Betty Friedan said and wrote, and they are bastardizing feminism with their nonsense.
Why should they care at all about my thoughts on the purity of what they are teaching?
For the record, I'm not a Catholic. There are issues in this Church which many people have problems with. But then, it's true about any church since no human institution is perfect. I also fully support freedom of conscience. It's not for me to decide who will get eternal damnation, it's up to God.
ReplyDeleteHowever, things you call "nonsense" are normal Christian doctrine and you surely should be aware by now this blog is Christian so I don't get what is your problem exactly and why I should listen to some liberal American preacher when we have liberals of our own over here. That's why I doubt that you argue in good faith
I'm at a total loss as to how you concluded Donahue and the Recovering Catholic are 'liberals.' No one has ever been able to prove to me that modern churches are what Jesus would have wanted when there were also the Gnostics and Cathars and other Christian sects brutally oppressed in the name of Jesus because they had no central authority to prostrate themselves to.
DeleteI do support 'freedom of association' which has been lost in the West, so the libertarian minded side of me does not support churches being forced to marry gay people as a good example.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/more-protestant-churches-closing-than-opening-in-america.html
Because "conservative" Christians (I really don't like that word as much anymore) are Bible-believing, i.e. they take the Scriptures literally and yes, this includes virgin birth, Jesus Christ dying for our sins and salvation. They may differ on how to interpret certain passages (whether you can lose your salvation, whether your works contribute to it, infant baptism vs believer's baptism etc) but they will agree with the most important things.
ReplyDeletePeople who will tell you not to take any of this stuff seriously, are liberals at best, heretics at worst. And I'm not at all interested in their opinions as I choose to believe in what the Scriptures teach. BTW, even Muslims believe in Virgin birth.
P.S. It's crazy that we are even having this discussion at all. The doctrine of salvation i.e. Jesus dying for our sins is the core belief of Christianity. There is no Christianity without it. So basically you are asking me to denounce my religion because of what exactly? Because there are unbelievers among us and you are one of them? Because it hurts your feelings that I posted an article about repentance? I think you are losing your time here arguing, honestly.
ReplyDeleteAh, one more thought. I would argue, without question, that disbelief in the concept of sin is the foundational principle on which liberalism (leftism) is built.
ReplyDeleteSo no matter what you believe about politics and economics, if you don't believe that mankind is sinful, that there is such a thing as right and wrong, good and evil, and that there is an objective standard by which these things can be measured, you are a liberal. By definition.
Yes, I agree. Liberals don't believe in the existence of evil and will try to explain it away in psychological terms. Like the reason for someone committing a crime is they didn't get enough education, they need psychological help etc.
ReplyDelete