Here is a disclaimer: I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and I don't even like it that much. However, it doesn't change the fact that Catholics are Christians and our brothers in faith. Catholic believers (as opposed to cultural Catholics) don't need to be converted to an American style Evangelicalism, they don't need lectures on how to "be born again", they don't need a Protestant style "revivals", Americans don't need to send missionaries to the predominantly Catholic cultures etc etc. I hope you get my point.
If past religious wars have taught us Europeans anything, it's the need to be tolerant. That doesn't mean we can't criticise each other or learn from each other. But leave people be. They already chose what they believe in. Have a bit respect. BTW, I don't understand this conversion zeal, either. That is, I can understand when it's dealing with non-Christians. But every Christian denomination (that includes Catholics, btw) is obsessed with going to areas populated by a different variety Christians and trying to convert them to their own particular version of religion.
Here is the good news for you: you don't need to belong to a particular church to go to Heaven, you just need to have saving faith. One finds it in a Baptist church, another in a Catholic one, the third is Greek Orthodox. An important thing is that the church is theologically sound, of course, but people born in a certain tradition will still predominantly look within their own denomination. For instance, while I am not entirely satisfied with the condition of the Protestantism in the Netherlands, I'm still not planning to become a Catholic.
So I can perfectly well understand that a believing Catholic will may be look for a more conservative priest but won't attend my church. In the society where most people are agnostics at best, religious battles between various shades of Christians can wait till better times.
Saving faith through the blood of Jesus Christ. That is all that is needed.đ Linda T
ReplyDeleteAs a Roman Catholic who attends a Maronite Catholic Church, I SO appreciate your post. The world is on fire; all Christians need to band together because the opposing evil forces want to end us ALL and drag anyone left to h-e-l-l.
ReplyDeleteJo
Anon and anon: exactly:)
ReplyDeleteSaving faith, yes. But can we really say someone has saving faith in Christ, if he or she is pro female priesthood? Or some other nonsense.
ReplyDeletePeople may THINK they have saving faith, but in reality, their faith can be so skewed, it has come blasphemy. I mean I have met a lady who actually believed she can have holy communion all by herself, at home, with regular bread and orange juice and it is JUST as relevant as actual holy communion in church, from priest's hand.
I have visited "Masses" with female priests and you will notice, that it is not an actual Mass, it is just praying event. If one does not notice it before, when you receive communion, you realize that this is not Holy Communion, this is just crappy wine and a piece of tasteless bread. Grace is not there, God is not there (no more than he is in your bathroom, of course he is everywhere always, but you know his special presence in an actual Mass).
So I believe that most of the times people are trying to convert other christians, they have actual and genuine worry concerning their immortal souls. What a terrible faith it is for a person, to believe you are a christian when in reality, you are worse than heathens, because everyone who has the priviledge to read Bible should know better?
And we also have people calling themselves christians and believing holy matrimony is for homosexuals.
It is very naive to think that everyone who calls himself christian, actually is one. I would say 90 % of modern christians wouldn't pass "christianity test" at 1930's. Lukewarm christians had more morals then than modern fundamentalists.
I'm going to ignore the Catholic part for the moment as my issues with them are secondary here. The real issue is the matter of Salvation. I heard before in the Watchman community that you could probably walk into a church and say at a minimum only 1 of 3 people were saved. Frankly I tend to agree. Lots of people claim to be Christian or that they are going to Heaven, but when asked why they believe that their answers are not good.
ReplyDeleteWe are in the days of the Church of Laodicia for sure. It does make sense if you think about it from a spiritual viewpoint. Satan wants to drag as many people with him to Hell as possible, and as Jesus said there is one way to the Father and that is through him. Therefore everything else sends people to Hell, so to Satan it doesn't matter if you believe in Budda, or Alla, or the Flying Spatgetti Monster. Each of those is still a path of death and destruction. So it would make sense that he would do what he could to make matters of Salvation is difficult as possible, despite the simplicity in Christ.
In my life I have seen a multitude of preachers come and go, and a bunch of churches, same with Sunday school teachers and youth ministers. Till I was in my early 30s, I believed I was saved, but had a very rocky view of it. Always believing that because I was asked to get baptized because my sister wanted to but was too scared, that since I had agreed it meant that I wasn't saved. I flipped flopped on being absolutely sure I was saved and being in a panic, because I knew I wasn't due to not being properly baptized. I thank the Lord he finally set me straight. He gave me a preacher who straighten it out for me. It was like I had never even read the bible, even though I had. Quite frankly it was amazing, things made sense, questions about why this or that were answered. After two decades and change, I was finally sure I was saved. Do doubts and fears still pop up from time to time, sure, but the Lord settles me down and comforts me.
The point I'm making is that the devil is doing his best to muddy the waters as it were. A lot of pastors I've seen these days, may be good men, but quite frankly have no idea what they are doing. Again to the devil it doesn't matter so much what he pushes as long as he can keep a soul from Jesus. This is why you will see satanists, muslims, wickens, atheists, etc all working together despite the fact that at least two of their factions call for the complete destruction of the others. We were quite literally told this is a spiritual war, not a physical war. A concept I don't think a lot of people really grasp. After all the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist. - W
To clarify on that first point. I've seen or heard of a lot of people say they are going to Heaven because they are good people. Or that everyone goes to Heaven, or because they were baptized as a child they are saved. Heck I suspect that once the 3rd temple is build and the sacrifices start again, we will hear Jews saying they are saved and going to Heaven because their sins are forgiven due to sacrificing a birth, goat, or lamb at the alter. The thing is we are in the age of Grace, there is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus. We are told salvation comes through faith, faith in what. Faith in the blood of Jesus. His blood that covers our sins. So to hear all these people claim to be Christian and not understand is worrisome at best.
DeleteIf you have a weak stomach, its best to skip this next part.
I want you to imagine everyone who ever lived. Currently its between 7 and 9 billion right? Well how many lived and died in the last 6,000 years? Probably close to 50 billion one would suspect. Now think about how many of them were saved? Heck, lets just limit it to the Age of Grace, so the last 2,000 years after Jesus's death and resurrection. Probably about 20 to 30 billion. How many were saved? Out of all of them how many came to salvation? We can't call this current period normal, so up the numbers by say 200%. Lets estimate 4 billion were saved. Right so that leaves 16 to 26 billion souls. Now we are told in the old testament that all those not saved went to hell or the Lake of Fire. So I want you to look down at the ground. And realized somewhere down there is 16 to 26 billion souls that in the last 2,000 years didn't get saved. That is why salvation is so absolutely important. That is why it is so important that the various churches teach people how to be saved.
People don't seem to think this through. It is not just a matter of going to Heaven at the rapture. It is a matter of every last one of us is born a sinner. Even one sin is enough to condemn you. Jesus offers us a way out. His gift is a blood bought salvation. We are told in Hebrews 9 that blood is required for the remission of sin. In the law it was the blood of animals that purified, but we are blessed because Jesus Christ, the Son of God shed his blood, in payment of our sins, if we but believe. - W
Blanka, my country must be lagging behind because I never heard about a female Catholic priest. Liberal Protestants have female clergy. For the record, if my church started ordaining women I'd quit attending. This is my red line:) Same for elders and deacons.
ReplyDeleteAs for conversions, cynical me thinks that the motifs aren't always that pure and there is also politics in the game...
Anon W, my point chiefly was that saving faith can be found in different denominations, including Roman Catholic church. I don't believe in Rapture, btw, and my church doesn't teach it, either.
ReplyDeleteFor the rest yes,
ReplyDeleteFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
After reading this post and thread, I'm so glad I'm an agnostic. The 'Christians' can not even agree on a number of things like the number of books and some other points of their faith. The thing is, how do we know if today's Christianity and it's various number of interpretations is what Jesus would have wanted? We don't and never will.
ReplyDeleteTexan, humans aren't perfect but God is...
ReplyDeleteCatholic church was mentioned so I wanted to add that I found Father Stu being a good movie I can recommend (which usually never happens). The most of the language is not for puritans, though, but it gets cleaner towards the end ;-)
ReplyDeleteInteresting, thanks!
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